Sometimes, we just have to make a "101" episode of Civics 101. That is the case this week, in the wake of the arrest of Venezuela's sitting president by the United States. So, what's happening with Venezuela, Maduro, and the Trump administration's plan to "run" that country?
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Read the transcript:
Hannah McCarthy: Two days ago I woke up and texted our boss, Rebecca Lavoie, asking if she wouldn’t mind if I swapped out our originally planned episode for something else. She said yes, so I wrote this. Civics 101 was not designed to be a news-responsive show, and it will continue to be the place you can turn for the basics of American democracy, laws and systems, whether they’re in the headlines or not. But we also believe it’s also our responsibility to help people understand what is happening RIGHT NOW. So. Hi, Nick
Nick Capodice: Ohhhh hello. Heads down, thumbs up.
Hannah McCarthy: I’m Hannah McCarthy
Nick Capodice: I’m Nick Capodice.
Hannah McCarthy: This is Civics 101. And this is your guide to what is going on vis-a-vis America/Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro and President Donald Trump’s plan. Or at least what we know of it. We are going VERY 101 with this one, because that is why we EXIST. So first, Nick, what just happened in Venezuela?
Nick Capodice: Well, on January 3rd the United States military conducted a “large-scale strike” as they’re calling it. In Caracas, the capital of the Venezuela. As of this point Venezuela is saying that 40 people were killed, including military and civilians. And the U.S. military captured Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores. They put them on a plane and brought them to New York. And I know there are federal charges against them.
Hannah McCarthy: Yup. So anyone wondering what’s going on here?
Nick Capodice: I am. Me.
Hannah McCarthy: I’m going to do my best. Stay tuned.
Hannah McCarthy: Ok. Before we can talk about what JUST happened in Venezuela and what is supposedly going on and what ELSE looks like it’s going on, I think we need to establish something very basic. Venezuela. What do you know about it, Nick?
Nick Capodice: So it’s at the very northern tip of South America, I know that. Next to Colombia. And I know they got a lottttttta oil.
Hannah McCarthy: They sure do, they actually have the MOST. The most oil of any country on earth. As far as we know.
Nick Capodice: And I know that Donald Trump says the Venezuelan government has been purposefully sending a lot of drugs into America.
Hannah McCarthy: That is also what the federal indictment against President Maduro says. AKA the thing that the United States is using as justification for having captured Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, and bringing them to the United States. What else do you know?
Nick Capodice: Uh. Well, like you said, the President of Venezuela is Nicolas Maduro. I know that people call him a dictator even though the Venezuelan government is technically a constitutional republic. Like it’s got three branches, executive, legislative and judicial. And I guess the last big thing that comes to mind is Chavez?
Hannah McCarthy: Oh yeah. Hugo Chavez sure does come to mind. Actually, it might make sense to start there. Who was Chavez?
Nick Capodice: Also someone people call a dictator? He died in… 2013. Former president of Venezuela.
Hannah McCarthy: And right off the bat I’m also going to tell you that there are also people who call Chavez a hero. And to get to Maduro, and not all that much to drugs, to be honest, we have to talk about Chavez. And we have to talk about oil. Those oil reserves you mentioned, the same oil President Trump is now promising to “take back,” those made Venezuela one of the wealthiest nations on the planet for a while. Their economy was almost entirely dependent on oil.
Nick Capodice: Did you know that’s called a petrostate? Or a petrocracy? The world wants oil, a country has oil, a LOT of oil, oil becomes their main thing and that causes problems.
Hannah McCarthy: It sure does. Power concentrates, corruption spreads. But before things went bad, Venezuela had all this oil, giant oil corporations like Exxon, Mobile and Chevron were down there playing a major role. And then the country went through decades of attempting to nationalize the oil industry.
Nick Capodice: Meaning what?
Hannah McCarthy: Meaning, essentially, Venezuela wanted to take control of operations and keep as much oil money in the country as possible. But also there was a little problem in the 1970s and 80s re: oil. Any guesses?
Nick Capodice: OH yeah. The energy crisis! Long lines at the gas station in that hazy 1970s sunshine. Which was caused by a lot of things. Like war.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, if you want an episode on the energy crisis drop us a line cause it’s not happening right now. But Venezuela was going through a lot of political changes, the government wanted to nationalize oil operations to gain economic sovereignty aka be the ones in charge of the stuff that makes the money. So this combination of taking control and super low oil prices by the 1980s leaves Venezuela in a pickle. Also, taking over the oil industry left them in BIG TIME debt to American oil companies who either got the heck out of dodge or struggled to negotiate new contracts AND who wanted to be recouped for their lost oil pipelines and rigs. That is a debt Venezuela has struggled to pay off. Also the U.S. imposed sanctions on Venezuelan oil, which I am also not going to get into, but which made it harder to sell that oil. And make money. To pay back debt.
Nick Capodice: Ok, take a breath and hang on. When Trump says Venezuela STOLE our oil… is that true?
Hannah McCarthy: No. Venezuela owns its own resources. Foreign companies negotiate contracts with the government in order to have oil operations there. Or, if the government and the industry is in turmoil, they fail to negotiate contracts. Which is what happened to U.S. companies in the past.
Nick Capodice: Uh huh. Ok. And the political turmoil part?
Hannah McCarthy: To the PoliSci and history professors listening, I am sorry for this broad brush. The broadest brush I got. This is my broad Chavez brush. The oil stuff was a mess, the government was blamed, the economy was in trouble, people were hungry, there were riots, a military officer named Hugo Chavez attempts a coup. He goes to jail. He gains a lot of support. He’s let out of jail and runs for president, promises to end poverty, corruption and the old political system. He wins.
Nick Capodice: And he stayed in power for a long time, right?
Hannah McCarthy: Chavez was elected in 1998. And uh oh, my brush is getting broader. Chavez says the people are in charge and have ultimate power. Like more power than the legislature and more power than the Supreme Court. And BASICALLY, Nick, BASICALLY, there is a constitutional convention with delegates who are almost entirely Chavez supporters. They change the constitution. They fire and replace the Supreme Court. The legislature loses its power.
Nick Capodice: Is this why people call Chavez a dictator?
Hannah McCarthy: Well, this is why people call Chavez a hero and this is – BROAD brush – why people call Chavez a dictator. Also, Nick, the way people in the U.S. talk about Chavez is not necessarily the way that everyone talks about Chavez. The new Constitution was chock full of human rights, supports for impoverished people, supports for workers. It also made the president very powerful. And Chavez was in power for a long time. And while he was in power, the economy got worse and worse. There was a lot of corruption. There were, as it turns out, a lot of human rights violations. The oil industry was a mess. And then in 2013 he died and Nicolas Madura stepped up.
Nick Capodice: Oh, ok, we’re on to Maduro?
Hannah McCarthy: We’re on to Maduro. Rolling right along here, because, again, what on earth is going on right now, right? That’s the point here. Chavez wanted Maduro to be his successor. Maduro wins a tight election, so tight that his opponent calls for a recount, that recount does NOT happen.
Nick Capodice: Uh oh.
Hannah McCarthy: Maduro is not Chavez. Chavez was beloved by many. He was super charismatic. He led a sweeping regime change and told the people that THEY were in charge. Maduro inherited a collapsing economy and opposition to his leadership. He cracked down on protests and killed people. In 2018 he was declared the president again in an unopposed election, but a lot of countries refused to recognize that as legit. Maduro jailed or exiled opponents. In 2024 he claimed to have won again, despite evidence that his opponent, Edmundo Gonzalez had won. More political prisoners ended up jailed.
Nick Capodice: But all of this, Hannah, is not why the United States captured Nicolas Maduro. All of the political oppression.
Hannah McCarthy: No. Maduro was captured, after months of the United States conducting strikes on alleged Venezuelan drug trafficking boats and killing over a hundred people, on the grounds of that federal indictment we mentioned earlier. That indictment accuses Maduro, his wife and four others, of narco-terrorism.
Nick Capodice: Which, I mean, I can guess, but for the people in the back?
Hannah McCarthy: So Maduro is accused of flooding the U.S. with thousands of tons of cocaine to get himself and others rich and acquiring and using things like machine guns to do it.
Nick Capodice: Is that true?
Hannah McCarthy: Well, there’s gonna be a trial, isn’t there. There’s the truth and then there’s the American legal system. Experts say that Venezuela plays a minor role in trafficking drugs that reach the U.S.. Most of the trafficked drugs come from countries like Mexico, Ecuador, Guatemala or Venezuela’s neighbor, Colombia.
Nick Capodice: But we didn’t capture the leaders of those countries.
Hannah McCarthy: Nope, we captured Maduro.
Nick Capodice: Why were we allowed to do that, exactly?
Hannah McCarthy: “Allowed” is tricky, because U.S. intervention of this kind has long been scrutinized, criticized and challenged. There are people saying this is an illegal kidnapping. We have, by the way, captured foreign leaders in the past. A lot of people are comparing this one to the U.S. capture of Manuel Noriega, you remember that one?
Nick Capodice: That’s Panama, right? Under George H.W.?
Hannah McCarthy: That’s the one. Noriega was a military dictator in Panama, he was accused of drug trafficking, among other things. The United States captured him in 1989. He was tried and he was imprisoned. The difference THERE is that Panama had declared itself at war with the U.S. prior to Noriega’s capture. Prior to Maduro’s capture, the Venezuelan president told a journalist that he wanted to work with the U.S. on drug policy and oil agreements.
Nick Capodice: And just real quick, back to this “allowed” thing. How is it that the U.S. can just go in and grab someone? There’s gotta be some kinda something under that.
Hannah McCarthy: Well first I’ll tell you that this is almost certainly a violation of international law. There’s a United Nations treaty that says you can’t use military force against other countries without that country’s permission, the U.N.’s permission or in self-defense, none of which appear to apply here. BUT U.S. presidents have claimed they have constitutional powers that, basically, float above or outside of national law. That’s how Nopriega’s capture was justified. I’ll also tell you that Trump is saying that the Monroe Doctrine is one of the reasons the U.S. can do this. Although he is now calling it the “Don-roe” Doctrine.
Nick Capodice: Yeah I think I heard that one. The Monroe Doctrine I sort of know. It was the 1800s.
Hannah McCarthy: 1823.
Nick Capodice: And it was basically a deal that said the U.S. will stay out of European conflict and issues if Europe stayed away from countries in the Western hemisphere.
Hannah McCarthy: Which, by the way, European nations initially were like, ok, whatever Monroe. When France put an emperor in Mexico in the 1860s, the U.S. was like get outta there and eventually they did. THEN Theodore Roosevelt comes in with the Roosevelt Corollary.
Nick Capodice: The what now.
Hannah McCarthy: Roosevelt thought the Monroe Doctrine should also mean we can go in and get involved in unstable Latin American countries. Which, ultimately, is how the U.S. scored the Panama Canal Zone. And this principle of using the Monroe Doctrine to help out American interests – and I don’t mean interests like keeping drugs out of the country – is the way that a lot of experts are viewing what is going on with Venezuela right now.
Nick Capodice: I mean, ya know. Oil DID become a talking point pretty much right away.
Hannah McCarthy: Something to keep in mind here is that “Western Hemisphere” part of the Monroe Doctrine.
Hannah McCarthy: Trump is now suggesting that Colombia needs to watch its back.
Hannah McCarthy: Secretary of State Marco Rubio is suggesting that Cuba is in play as well.
Hannah McCarthy: The Cuban government, by the way, has issued a statement telling all nations of the region to “remain alert, as the threat hangs over all.”
Nick Capodice: Well. Ok. We’ll just keep watching, I suppose. And because we are not clairvoyants all we can do right now is talk about Venezuela, right? Because I have one really big question.
Hannah McCarthy: Go for it.
Nick Capodice: President Trump said the U.S. is going to run it. Run the country of Venezuela. Explain that one to me.
Hannah McCarthy: Well, Nick, I can’t, really. And Trump hasn’t either. What he has said is that, if Maduro’s Vice President, Delcy Rodríguez, “does what we want” we won’t have to send U.S. troops into Venezuela to help run the country.
Nick Capodice: Ok, but Hannah, run the country.
Hannah McCarthy: I know. Experts don’t see a legal basis for it. The phrase “violation of international law” is coming up a LOT lately. As of now, Marco Rubio seems to be the one who will be helping the “run the country” thing if necessary. Trump said Rubio talked to Vice President Rodriguez and that she was “willing to do what we think is necessary to make Venezuela great again.” Rodriguez, meanwhile, is saying the U.S. illegally kidnapped Maduro and said Venezuela will never again be the colony of another empire.
Nick Capodice: And the oil thing seems to be THE thing here. Trump talked a LOT about oil.
Hannah McCarthy: Trump has said U.S. oil companies are going to go and spend billions of dollars to revitalize what is currently a crumbling oil industry in Venezuela. And then get reimbursed and make tons and tons of oil money. How that is supposed to happen without a stable government or the ability to guarantee employee safety – that we don’t know. That and a lot else.
Nick Capodice: Right, well. You did your best, McCarthy. I think we gotta leave it there for now.
Hannah McCarthy: I think we gotta. Would you call all that a 101?
Nick Capodice: Definitely not.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah. I know. Maybe 201?
Nick Capodice: Eh.