Today we take a field trip to Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania where Nick explains why he's like this via an obsession with 1776, the movie based on the musical based on the true events that launched a nation. Our nation. Also, Nick and Hannah get real using Dido as inspiration.
Transcript
Hannah McCarthy: [00:00:07] Here I am, sitting on a stoop. Stoop. [00:00:10] Kid's afraid to leave her stoop. Everyone, [00:00:20] today you are invited on a field trip. If there is any one historic location that Nick Capodice has seen more than any other, it is probably this [00:00:30] one. Except he had never been there before. Now, if you've ever spoken to Nick about the Revolutionary War era, or about movies, or about [00:00:40] William Daniels, or really for any length of time, or if you've listened to more than just a few episodes of Civics 101, you have probably heard him mention this one film.
Nick Capodice: [00:00:49] If I had a [00:00:50] switch, Hannah, that could turn off my love for the musical 1776, I'd flip it, but I don't have that switch, do I?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:00:57] Anyways, Nick and I were in Philadelphia for a conference [00:01:00] and we had spent days and days talking about American democracy, about the origin story of this nation. So Nick and I get to the last [00:01:10] afternoon of that conference and I said, hey, what if we visited the very place where everything ended and everything began? And [00:01:20] what if you explained that story via your favorite movie of all time? Nick. It was not a hard sell. So [00:01:30] here we are. Independence Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where many of the delegates of the Second Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence on August [00:01:40] 2nd, 1776. You are also invited into the mind of Nick Capodice. How this movie and this story took hold of him and what it means to [00:01:50] him right now. This is Civics 101. I'm Hannah McCarthy and Nick Capodice is beside himself.
Nick Capodice: [00:02:02] This [00:02:00] is the most excited I've been... I've never been here before.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:02:06] You've never been?
Nick Capodice: [00:02:06] I've never been here. Never been. I went to the Mutter Museum [00:02:10] of Medical Oddities. But I didn't go here. You know, and it feels like. Have you been here before?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:02:16] Never.
Nick Capodice: [00:02:16] Oh my God. Okay. What? [00:02:20] What movie did you watch more than any other in your whole life?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:02:26] Princess Bride.
Nick Capodice: [00:02:27] Okay, that's a good one. Yeah, I had that too. So [00:02:30] I, you know, when I was about ten years old, I was living in New Hampshire. My dad, ever since some rough behavior about me not getting to watch the Monkees episode. I wanted to watch. I [00:02:40] used to love the.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:02:41] M o n k e e s.
Nick Capodice: [00:02:42] That's right. The TV show The Monkees. So anyway, my dad was like, no more TV. That's it. And from that point [00:02:50] until I left home, I didn't we didn't watch TV, we didn't get any channels. We did have a VCR.
Speaker 4: [00:02:58] You did what? [00:03:00] What? What do you mean? What did you do? What did you do when you weren't allowed to watch an episode of The [00:03:10] Monkeys?
Nick Capodice: [00:03:10] I flipped out when I was told I couldn't watch the monkeys. And that was the end of it. It was in stages. First it was. We can only watch [00:03:20] The Cosby Show and Family Ties. So then what would happen is. But then those got banned and then it was everything's banned. But I went to this [00:03:30] friend's house, Christine, dear friend of our family, and she had a tape that said 1776. And I was like, oh, what's this? She said, it's a musical about the Declaration of Independence. [00:03:40]
Speaker 5: [00:03:41] When a king becomes a tyrant, he thereby breaks the contract, binding his subjects to him.
Speaker 6: [00:03:47] How so?
Nick Capodice: [00:03:48] And I borrowed that tape from her [00:03:50] every night for like a year. And then for Christmas, she gave me my own tape of it. And there were some years I just watched it every day. I loved it's [00:04:00] a musical. I thought it was funny. I thought it was great. And I love the acting and I love the music. And I have watched it more than any other film in my [00:04:10] life. And this is where it was filmed. Independence Hall, but it's also where the Declaration of Independence was signed.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:04:17] Which is famously the site of the filming of [00:04:20] 1776 and some other thing that happened.
Nick Capodice: [00:04:22] So the opening scene of the movie is John Adams is in that tower right there, that bell tower that we can see sort of staring [00:04:30] forlornly. And McNair, congressional custodian, is calling up like, Mr. Adams, you got to get down. We got to vote in this Congress. And, you know, we have a very important issue. And it's like, I can just [00:04:40] imagine, you know, what burning issue are we voting on today? And the big issue, it's not independence on whether or not the militia is required to wear matching uniforms. [00:04:50] And he storms downstairs. Burst into the Independence [00:05:00] Hall and start saying how useless things are in Philadelphia. This nation will never... I've come to the conclusion.
Nick Capodice: [00:05:06] It's never going to happen. And then he says, the one thing we have to do is vote [00:05:10] yes for independency to dissolve our allegiance to the British crown. And the whole movie is about that struggle to get the Declaration of Independence [00:05:20] written, ratified, written and ratified. This famous song is called Sit Down, John.
1776: [00:05:30] Vote [00:05:30] for independence.
Nick Capodice: [00:05:33] William Daniels, who's a lot of folks might know, is what's the teacher's name in Boy Meets World?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:05:37] Mr. Feeny.
Nick Capodice: [00:05:39] I didn't watch TV? [00:05:40] Hannah. Okay, well, that was after the Monkees.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:05:43] Okay. Boy Meets world is how I learned the Monkees existed. So everything comes full circle. There's an episode [00:05:50] where the Monkees show up.
Nick Capodice: [00:05:52] Oh my God. Well, they they needed work after their show was canceled. Yeah. [00:06:00] William Daniels plays the irascible, stubborn [00:06:10] John Adams, who is obnoxious and disliked, and the whole movie is them lurching towards this bizarre [00:06:20] concept of independence.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:06:22] Independency, as they.
Nick Capodice: [00:06:24] Call independency.
1776: [00:06:26] Will someone shut that man up.
Nick Capodice: [00:06:29] Never [00:06:30] the the villain in the movie. So the protagonist, the hero is John Adams, missing his beloved wife Abigail, who he writes letters to and, [00:06:40] you know, says how much he loves her.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:06:41] And where's Abigail?
Nick Capodice: [00:06:43] She's in Quincy, Massachusetts.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:06:46] Where Abigail is at the farm and Braintree. Braintree, [00:06:50] Massachusetts, where Hannah McCarthy grew up. And now Quincy's the city of presidents.
Nick Capodice: [00:06:56] I didn't know that Quincy was the home of the Adams is because in the [00:07:00] movie, she says, the farm here in Braintree is failing. The chickens and the geese have all died.
1776: [00:07:04] It appears the farm here in Braintree is failing. John, the chickens and the [00:07:10] geese have all died. The apples never survived the late fall.
Nick Capodice: [00:07:15] So John Adams wants independency. Congress [00:07:20] says no or the Congress is useless. They can't. They can't even. There's a big debate about whether they should have the windows open or closed, and if it's because it's so hot in Philadelphia and that [00:07:30] that that that summer. And they can't agree on to open them because if they open the windows, the flies will all come in. And if they close it, it'll be hot, but it'll keep the flies out. And [00:07:40] the point is how inefficacious a Congress is. The line is John Adams storms in and says, I've come to the conclusion that one [00:07:50] useless man is called a disgrace.
1776: [00:07:53] That two are called a law firm, and that three or more become a Congress. [00:08:00]
Nick Capodice: [00:08:01] And by God, I have had this Congress for ten years. King George and his Parliament have Gulled Khalid and diddled these colonies with their illegal [00:08:10] taxes. Stamp acts, Townshend acts, sugar acts TX. I'm almost done. And when we've dared stand up like men. They've stopped our trade, seized our ships, blockaded [00:08:20] our ports, burnt our towns and spilled our blood. And still this Congress refuses to grant any of my proposals an independency, even [00:08:30] so much as the courtesy of open debate. The president of the Second Continental Congress was John Hancock. You [00:08:40] know him, right?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:08:41] Got a big Ole name.
Nick Capodice: [00:08:42] Big. So Fat George in London can read it without his glasses. John Hancock was like a. In the real world [00:08:50] he was a tea smuggler, like his whole family was a bunch of tea smugglers from Boston. But anyway, John Hancock was the president of the Continental Congress. Adams and his crew [00:09:00] is trying to get independency passed and they can't do it. And, uh, this the villain of the movie is John Dickinson from Pennsylvania, who's a loyalist who's [00:09:10] like, have you no love for the country that bore you for like Mother England?
1776: [00:09:15] Is that all the pride and affection you can muster for the nation that bore you [00:09:20] for the noblest, most civilized nation on the face of this planet?
Nick Capodice: [00:09:24] There's only 13 colonies. They only need seven votes to declare independency. And they can't do it [00:09:30] because John Adams is obnoxious and disliked. And John Dickinson is leading the opposition saying, no, we shouldn't declare independency. There's [00:09:40] only 11 represented colonies at the Congress.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:09:44] Why is that?
Nick Capodice: [00:09:45] Georgia hasn't shown up and new Jersey hasn't shown up when this movie opens. [00:09:50] So they just need what what's the majority of 11 six? Yeah, six votes to become. But they can't do it. Uh, and then Georgia shows [00:10:00] up and Georgia is not sure where it wants to stand.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:04] Who is.
Nick Capodice: [00:10:05] That? Doctor Lyman Hall of Georgia. Doctor Lyman Hall of Georgia. He [00:10:10] shows up and he doesn't know where to go. Doesn't know where to stand. And, uh, Ben Franklin shows up from Pennsylvania.
1776: [00:10:16] Now, then attend as friend to friend. Our declaration [00:10:20] committee for us. I see immortality in Philadelphia City.
Nick Capodice: [00:10:29] There's [00:10:30] three delegates from Pennsylvania in the movie. John Dickinson, who's anti-independence. Uh, Ben Franklin, who is very. For independence. Ben Franklin [00:10:40] is the second biggest character in the musical played by Howard da Silva. He's he's like the best. He's a very good. Franklin. I told my dad when I grew up, my dream was to [00:10:50] be an actor who played Franklin.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:52] And it's not too late. Nick.
Nick Capodice: [00:10:53] But he was like, what about, uh, John Adams? And I was like, nope. And he kept noting that all the roles [00:11:00] I wanted to play were rather plump old men. He was like, don't you want to be like Jesus in Jesus Christ? I was like, no, I'll be Herod. That's who I want to. That's who I want [00:11:10] to be. But they come upon a plan which is let someone else in Congress propose because no one likes John Adams. And they get Richard Henry Lee of Virginia. Richard Henry Lee makes [00:11:20] the proposal, and then it's shall we vote yay or nay on the proposal for independence? And at this time, New York never votes yes or no. [00:11:30] They abstain courteously.
1776: [00:11:31] New York abstains courteously. Mr. Morris, why does New York constantly abstain?
Nick Capodice: [00:11:38] So you've got a tied vote. Six [00:11:40] for independence, six against independence. John Hancock, he's from Massachusetts. He's pro-independence. If they vote, they can get it to pass as a maneuver. That's this is actually [00:11:50] the part of the movie that I really care about. Um, John Dickinson of Pennsylvania says any vote for independence has to be unanimous. All 13 colonies have to say we want to [00:12:00] be independent and then it gets to the president, yes or no. And the president says it has to be unanimous. And why? Why should the vote for independence be unanimous?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:12:09] Because they [00:12:10] envision a future in which these individual colonies will be of one nation. Yeah.
Nick Capodice: [00:12:18] And even more painful, [00:12:20] Hancock says, when John Adams is like, what are you doing? You sunk us. He says, can't you see that any colony that doesn't want to be independent will be forced to fight on the side of England. We'll [00:12:30] be setting ourselves, brother against brother that our new nation carries on itself the mark of Cain. So then they're like, well, if it's got to be unanimous, it's never going to happen. So [00:12:40] then John Adams comes up with a stall. Total stall. How can we declare independence without having some sort of written declaration? For our purposes, [00:12:50] goals, ditto, ditto, etc., etc.. He's totally stalling and he says, well, we need to get the approval of France or Spain and such a document [00:13:00] would remain consistent with European delicacy. So they agree to write a declaration. Now who's going to write it? So the committee of ISC Livingston, Roger Sherman, Ben [00:13:10] Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, so the Committee of five Jefferson's writes it, and then the declaration is brought here to be debated. And [00:13:20] then, uh, the big the big swing in the musical is that there is a grievance in the declaration which was cut out. If anybody who's listened to any [00:13:30] of our episodes on the declaration knows it was cut out and it was about opposing the slave trade that King George has done, that the South says [00:13:40] if you don't get rid of that grievance, we're not going to sign your little piece of paper. And independence is gone forever.
1776: [00:13:47] We have no choice, John. The [00:13:50] slavery clause has got to go.
1776: [00:13:55] Franklin, what are you saying?
Nick Capodice: [00:13:58] John Adams is convinced to tell [00:14:00] Jefferson to scratch it out. And then there's one more little hurdle. Everybody's finally convinced to become independent except [00:14:10] Pennsylvania, run by John Dickinson. And also, keep in mind, this whole time, Britain is smashing the hell out of us in battles, just [00:14:20] destroying General Washington. Every other scene. George Washington's like messenger comes in and brings a missive of terrible news.
1776: [00:14:29] I beseech [00:14:30] the Congress to dispatch the War Committee to this place in the hope of restoring some of the order and discipline we need to survive. Your obedient G. [00:14:40] Washington.
Nick Capodice: [00:14:41] But here's the here's another favorite part of mine is when Adams is just complaining about the South, who's, you know, and Dickinson and all these people. And [00:14:50] Ben Franklin says, these men, no matter what we think of them, are not ribbon clerks to be ordered about. [00:15:00] Their elected representatives to Congress. They are like the cream of their colonies, and whether you like it or not, they are to be part of this new nation [00:15:10] you hope to create. So learn how to live with them or pack up and go home.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:15:22] We're [00:15:20] going to take a quick break when we come back. That was then. This is now. So what do [00:15:30] we do? So [00:16:00] it is March of 2026.
Nick Capodice: [00:16:06] Yeah.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:16:07] And we are coming up on the [00:16:10] 250th birthday of America. And we're actually in Philadelphia because it's the kickoff [00:16:20] to Civic Learning Week, right?
Nick Capodice: [00:16:21] Yeah, it's the National Forum for Civic Learning Week.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:16:25] And we've heard a lot of people talk about the loss of [00:16:30] and need for the ability for people who fundamentally disagree to talk to each other specifically in [00:16:40] America's democracy. And what you are describing is an insistence that the democracy would never even come [00:16:50] about. Not that they necessarily knew what the government was exactly going to look like, and they certainly made a couple of mistakes along the way. But in [00:17:00] order to even get to the point where they could start to think about what the government here would be, people who disagreed had to [00:17:10] agree on one thing. Mhm.
Nick Capodice: [00:17:13] Yeah. It's to me, [00:17:20] it seems bonkers that it happened because this required unanimity among a group of men who couldn't agree on anything. But they [00:17:30] argued about it, and they talked about it and they fought about it. There are all these stories of fights in these halls, walking sticks and stuff, but that they [00:17:40] actually got together for this one thing, this really scary thing, this thing that was signing their own death warrant, [00:17:50] their own trip to the gallows for treason. We say it over and over, but it is true. Like our the reason we're here is because people are able to talk about something [00:18:00] and disagree immensely, but then actually get somewhere.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:18:05] And because despite there being some [00:18:10] people who didn't necessarily want to talk or who wanted to leave other people out of the conversation, there were other people [00:18:20] who said, no, look, we got to do this together. You have to talk to that guy. You have to. There were voices of reason [00:18:30] and of power and influence who used their power and influence toward communication, [00:18:40] even within fundamental disagreements.
Nick Capodice: [00:18:48] There's even a part doctor Hall [00:18:50] of Georgia is wrestling with whether or not to vote for independence. And initially he's like, I can't decide. The people are against it and I'm for. It is what he says. And he's like, until I can figure out why I'm [00:19:00] here and what that means. Uh, I'm going to lean a little on their side. And then penultimate scene of the movie, he comes in the middle of the night and says, I couldn't [00:19:10] sleep. I was thinking about something I'd read was that I'm going to get the quote wrong. But like when a man represents people, he doesn't just give them his industry, [00:19:20] he gives them his judgment and he betrays them. If he does something thinking about what they want, it's his job as a representative. [00:19:30]
Hannah McCarthy: [00:19:31] To be paternalistic.
Nick Capodice: [00:19:32] And then he says, that was written by Edmund Burke, member of the British Parliament, and he slides the [00:19:40] vote over from nay to yea. I [00:19:50] grew up star spangled. Mostly because of this movie, I love America. [00:20:00] I really I love the people. I love these teachers we just talked to. I love the idea of America. I love the foundations of the declaration. I love [00:20:10] that all men are created equal even though they weren't. I am not loving it so much right now. I think what I'm feeling right [00:20:20] now is because I'm looking. I'm sitting outside of this hall, and I'm not feeling a swell in my stomach and a knot in my heart. Right now it [00:20:30] feels like I maybe don't love America, but I know that's not true. I love so much of it, and I love these ideals, [00:20:40] which maybe weren't held to for, what, 100 until the 1960s, basically. But I'm, I'm feeling [00:20:50] very hurt. I'm feeling hurt by America and I'm like spurning it. It's like someone who hurt me. And I'm like, well, if you're going to be that way, [00:21:00] you don't get my love. That makes me really sad. Do [00:21:10] you feel like ever? Like, is it worth is it worth fighting for?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:18] I know that it is. [00:21:20] And. Uh, so I guess my father had never heard White Flag by Dido before. [00:21:30]
Nick Capodice: [00:21:30] I had never heard white flag.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:32] That's true, that's true. And, uh, the other day he said he heard this song with these lyrics. I will go down with this [00:21:40] ship. I won't put my hands up and surrender. There will be no white flag above my door. I'm in love and always will be. And I was like, dad, that is Dido. [00:21:50] You've never heard that before. And. That's how I feel. You [00:22:00] know, I think that you don't turn your back on it. You [00:22:10] just keep going. Keep. Saying out loud what is at the core [00:22:20] of all of this? And. And if everyone stops believing in it, I'll be the madman in [00:22:30] town. But I'm willing to be.
Nick Capodice: [00:22:33] You're going to be the madman in the town who's saying I hold these truths to be self-evident? Don't forget, don't [00:22:40] forget. This is the Constitution. These are how. This is how things actually operate. And people are just saying to you, yeah, but that's not how it really works, [00:22:50] right?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:22:51] I actually, when I look at this building and I am reminded of the people who wrote the words upon [00:23:00] which American democracy was based. I. I feel a call to action. You know, I [00:23:10] feel voices from 250 years ago, or even more so, I feel like I can feel their eyes on me. Look [00:23:20] what we gave you, doofus. You know.
Nick Capodice: [00:23:24] The longest constitutional. The longest running constitutional republic in the world. Look [00:23:30] what we gave you. Ding dong. Figure it out, dummy. As soon as you started singing Dido. Hannah. [00:23:40] Really, though, I kind of regretted what I said earlier. Like, of course it's worth fighting for.
1776: [00:23:52] As [00:23:50] I write these words, the enemy is plainly in sight beyond the river. How it will [00:24:00] end. Only Providence can direct. But, dear God, what brave men! I [00:24:10] shall lose. Before this business. Ends. [00:24:20] Your obedient. G. [00:24:30] Washington.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:24:48] You [00:24:40] might have heard that we are approaching America's [00:24:50] 250th birthday, which will be celebrated on July 4th, 2026. Now Civics 101 stans will of course, know that the Second Continental Congress unanimously [00:25:00] voted for independence from Great Britain on July 2nd, edited the declaration for two days, approved the edits, sent it to John Dunlap to print it on July 8th. Colonel John Nixon [00:25:10] of Pennsylvania read it out loud. An independent square. A bunch of delegates signed it on August 8th, and the last signature happened sometime in early 1777. And [00:25:20] you'll probably know that John Adams thought July 2nd would long be celebrated. Quote, I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary [00:25:30] festival. Well, sorry, John, it's the fourth. Maybe one day we'll put you on standard issue currency. Anyway, in anticipation of making it through [00:25:40] a full 250 years, Civics 101 will spend the next months sharing stories that explore where we came from, how we got here, what that [00:25:50] means, and why it matters. Stay tuned for our series celebrating America's 250th birthday. We do love it. It is [00:26:00] worth fighting for. This episode was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy with Nick Capodice. Marina [00:26:10] Henke is our producer. Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer. Music in this episode comes from Epidemic Sound and the Streets of Philadelphia. You can find many, many stories and [00:26:20] lessons about this nation of ours at our website civics101podcast.org. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public [00:26:30] Radio.