Today we share our second installment on why things are tough in the civics world. Specifically, we talk about how students are doing in civics classrooms and on national assessments.
But! It's not all bad news. Shawn Healey (Chief Policy and Advocacy Officer at iCivics) takes us through the myriad state bills that are currently in the legislative process which will affect civic education, and we hear from three students (Ava-June Tackett, Shreya Raman, and Ben Kurian) on what they think can improve civic learning and reduce partisanship.
Transcript
Speaker 1: Well, new this morning. The National Education Report card was released overnight. It is painting a concerning picture of our students.
Speaker 2: Academic performances have really slipped over this last year, but some scores hitting lows set in the early 2000.
Speaker 3: The latest report card shows kids history scores are now historically low. The nation's middle schoolers are struggling to explain major themes and events in the country's past, and lack a basic understanding of the way government works.
Nick Capodice: You're [00:00:30] listening to Civics 101. I'm Nick Capodice.
Hannah McCarthy: I'm Hannah McCarthy.
Nick Capodice: And today, our second episode in collaboration with Icivics, talking about what Hannah and I learned at the Civic Learning Week National Forum in Philly. Today, we are going to hear why, civics wise, the kids are not all right. But it is not all doom and gloom today. People who are fans of civics and civic education, which I imagine is a large chunk of the people who listen to this very show, those folks are gonna get some good news, [00:01:00] so stick around. All right, everyone. So a few seconds ago, I said the kids are not all right, but I should really take that back. They are all right, and they always will be. At least according to Pete Townshend and The Who. But in all honesty, we could be doing a better job when it comes to helping them out. At least when it comes [00:01:30] to civics.
Hannah McCarthy: You've probably heard Nick or me talk about this before. When we look at federal dollars appropriated toward civic education, it is compared to what is appropriated for reading or math a small, small amount.
Nick Capodice: And to call one group out. By way of comparison, the federal government spends about $50 per student per year on Stem education.
Hannah McCarthy: Science, technology, engineering and math. Nick, what is the current spend on civics? [00:02:00]
Shawn Healey: The appropriation for fiscal year 26, which is will end at the end of September. We're at $23 million, which is about $0.46 a student.
Nick Capodice: This is Shawn Healy. Shawn is the chief policy and advocacy officer at iCivics. He travels the country constantly to talk to state legislatures and individuals. And he advocates for, you know, policy that improves civic education and 23 million like he said, [00:02:30] it's not a small number, I know, but it is 0.03% of the $63 billion federal education budget.
Hannah McCarthy: So I know that we do not spend a lot on civics education federally, but how well are we doing when it comes to civic education? Do we test it?
Nick Capodice: Yeah, we sort of do. And this is all part of NEP, which we refer to as nAEP, the National Assessment of Educational progress, which people also might know as the nation's report [00:03:00] card. Civics assessment is not mandatory. States can opt in to see how proficient their students are at civics, but the data we get from nAEP is one massive nationwide assessment of how the United States is doing its civics.
Shawn Healey: Uh, since 2010. We've only done that with eighth graders and you've seen the headlines. The proficiency numbers is in 2022 was at 22% proficiency, which [00:03:30] was a little lower than in the past. Um, but, but, uh, that's kind of where we've been stuck in that range, uh, really since the assessments unemployed and down to the state level, by our count, 29 states have some type of assessment in civics, but the majority of them are using some version of the US naturalization test, which, yeah, is somewhat controversial.
Hannah McCarthy: What are the main concerns with using [00:04:00] the naturalization test?
Shawn Healey: It requires a pretty low level of knowledge. So what are the colors of the stripes on the flag or what do they mean? For example, not saying that that's that's not important, but the concern is that if that's if that's all we're teaching, uh, in civics, that's that's insufficient 22% proficiency.
Hannah McCarthy: Does that make it our weakest subject?
Shawn Healey: So the only test that students do worse on, uh, on the nation's report card is American history. So [00:04:30] we're at 15% proficiency there, uh, on the last test. So, uh, we, we see the two very much tethered, right? That U.S. history and civics need to be taught in sequence. And they speak to one another, but those are the lowest scores of all the subjects tested by nAEP. It speaks to the marginalization, the broader marginalization of social studies. Right. Um, And in particular, just imagine if we weren't teaching reading and math in K-5, right? And [00:05:00] we're in a place now where we're lucky if students are getting 20 minutes a day on social studies. So it's, that's I don't know about you, Nick, but my recollection of elementary school growing up was social studies was right there with the other subjects, right? It wasn't it wasn't bigger, but it was very equivalent. And that is just not the case. I have a daughter in elementary school and they teach social studies like every other semester, and so they alternate social studies and science.
Nick Capodice: Did you [00:05:30] have social studies in eighth grade?
Hannah McCarthy: Hannah I did.
Nick Capodice: I did too. I think there was some geography in there as well. I may have mentioned it in another episode, but our teacher started every class by asking us, how you doing? And we were supposed to shout hungry! This was a reference to All the President's Men, where Harry Rosenfeld is talking about Woodward and Bernstein.
Speaker 7: He wants on the story bad. They both do. He knows a lot of people. Howard. They're hungry. You remember when you were hungry?
Hannah McCarthy: So what happened? How did we get to [00:06:00] 20 minutes a day on social studies and such low proficiency scores?
Shawn Healey: Yeah. I mean, a big driver of this was No Child Left Behind. Right. Which goes goes back 25 years now. And many states. I'm here in Illinois. We had a state social studies test. And essentially that law said, we're going to hold you accountable for student performance in reading and math. Um, so many states jettisoned assessments and other subject areas. And as they say, unfortunately, in the current [00:06:30] era, if you don't test it, you don't teach it, but schools are punished and rewarded for student performance in reading and math. So that's where the attention lies. And I think it's also fair to say, um, some of the retrenchment of the teaching of civics and social studies preceded No Child Left Behind. So this isn't just, you know, start in 2001, In 2002. Its controversial, right? So broadly American support teaching American history and civics. That's that's a 9010 [00:07:00] issue. Um, but then when you get into what we teach, how we teach, that's more controversial, right? And, uh, unfortunately, in this moment, if it's too hot to touch, you might put it over there, right? So it's the combination of not being a priority from the perspective of policy. And then, uh, in some corners being considered too hot to handle.
Hannah McCarthy: Nick.
Nick Capodice: What?
Hannah McCarthy: It's a grim picture. Yeah. Some people may consider civics and U.S. history too [00:07:30] hot to handle, but it is us. I don't mean you and me. Nick Capodice and Hannah McCarthy. I mean, civics is about understanding how we are governed, how we operate, how we got here, how we negotiate with each other, talk to each other. Do you have any good news?
Nick Capodice: I do. And the good news is that while federal support and programs focused on civics is, frankly rather anemic, there is a [00:08:00] tidal shift at the state level.
Shawn Healey: This spring, we've been tracking over 240 bills in 40 states that impact civic education, and some of those big ones are already across the finish line. Many states are already adjourning. Um, just as we're recording this just yesterday, uh, Alaska, uh, passed legislation that requires a high school course in civics, an assessment in civics, and a civic [00:08:30] diploma seal. Mississippi adopted a high school course requirement. Civic diplomacy was just exploding.
Hannah McCarthy: What are civic diploma seals?
Nick Capodice: This is something that at the start of this year, about a dozen states did where they recognize high school students for excellence in And civics by putting a state seal on their diploma. So ten more states are currently in the process of adopting state civics seals. They have either signed [00:09:00] it into law, or it is currently in a bill moving through the legislative process.
Shawn Healey: It's not crazy to say we could see 50 state adoption of civic diploma seals by 2030. The reason I think they're spreading so quickly is, or there are several reasons, but one, pretty easy to adopt, right? We're not mandating a new course. This is voluntary, right? So it's more of a carrot approach versus a stick approach. It aligns with what lots [00:09:30] of other states are doing, uh, with respect to putting forth portraits of a graduate. And so 26 states have already put forth these portraits, and they are not overtly civic, but there are certainly civic skills or competencies that they prioritize. So information literacy, for example, the ability to have conversations across ideological divides, uh, engagement in communities, these are often [00:10:00] part of, uh, graduate portraits and civic feels very much align with those. So I think you're getting, we're, we're moving to a place where, uh, civic competencies are prioritized. And we'll, uh, schools and districts and states will need to think of young people's civic development, not just in a single high school class, but over a K-12 trajectory. So that's a really positive, uh, development.
Hannah McCarthy: So these seals aren't just like proof that, you know, the three branches [00:10:30] and that Marbury versus Madison established judicial review. They are evidence that you are someone who does the work of being a citizen. You're informed, you participate in your community.
Nick Capodice: Yeah. And if you're leaving high school, this can go on your resume or your college application, Whatever. All right. So that is good news number one. Here is the second shift. We are, for the first time in decades changing how we assess civics.
Shawn Healey: The [00:11:00] National Assessment Governing Board approved a week ago expansion of the nAEP civics assessment as soon as 2028. So they were just in the field this spring doing the eighth grade assessment again. But come 2028, they're going to do the eighth grade assessment and they're going to do it expanded to allow state level data, which we've never had for civics. We have that in reading and math. Uh, states have to opt in, so some may not. Uh, [00:11:30] but, uh, in having that data, we'll be able to compare how states are doing relative to one another with respect to civics. Um, so that's kind of the other side, that kind of carrot stick approach, civics heels, uh, in this, this new, uh, nAEP assessment also kind of inside baseball, but they are going to revise the framework.
Hannah McCarthy: Meaning what? They're rewriting the questions.
Nick Capodice: Yeah. I'm putting a link to the current assessment in the show notes, just in case any of you out there want to take a crack at it and see how well you [00:12:00] do on sample questions versus an eighth grader. But these questions, Hannah, they have not been revised in a long time.
Shawn Healey: How long for Nape Civic? So it hasn't been revised since the 1990s.
Hannah McCarthy: The 1990s, my so-called life in Buffy.
Nick Capodice: Blossom in Beverly Hills, 90210. Hannah.
Shawn Healey: Just a little bit is changing our politics since then. It's not. It's very focused on institutions, the three branches of government, etc., but [00:12:30] but doesn't recognize, I think, the fact that our democracy has become increasingly digital, right? So the way we engage in democracy is so different. Um, it is very, you know, it's probably the best characterization of the framework is it is a mile wide and an inch deep. So as we teach about the three branches of government, for example, it's not just important that we going to name the three branches of government, but can we talk about how they interact with one another, right? These divided [00:13:00] and shared powers. And then, you know, this is a very ripe conversation in this moment. Uh, how is that balance of power evolved over time? Like that's the level of conceptual understanding we'd like to see this new framework encompass.
Nick Capodice: And the reason this is so important is that we read that big scary national 22% proficiency number. But like we so often say in other episodes, Hannah states do education, [00:13:30] right, not the federal government. And if we can see which states are doing better at civics and which states need help, that can make a big change. But I have to add, states have to opt into this voluntarily. So whether they do or not will remain to be seen.
Hannah McCarthy: Did Sean say if there was any indication that a lot of states would do this?
Nick Capodice: We cannot know for sure. But he is pretty hopeful.
Shawn Healey: The call hasn't happened yet, but we heard from our friends [00:14:00] at Nagb that they had an informational meeting in 45 states showed up. So that was surprising and really encouraging. What I didn't point out with those programs is there are red states, there are blue states, there are purple states. You know, that there's there's just broad adoption. And that's really encouraging to me.
Hannah McCarthy: All right. Nick. So that is how we in terms of states are changing policy to improve civic education. But what about the kids themselves? How [00:14:30] do they think they're doing?
Nick Capodice: Well, I'm going to share some students thoughts. Three students to be exact, three people who also happen to be among the brightest civic minds I have ever encountered in my whole life. Right after a quick break.
Ben Sheehan: And now, sitting on stage with some of the most accomplished people I've ever met who happen to be children, I'm starting to feel bad about myself. Uh, if you're an adult in this room [00:15:00] and you hear what these kids have done already, you might feel a little bit of that too. But far more than that, you'll feel really good about the future.
Nick Capodice: This is from a panel at the Civic Learning Week National Forum, where fellow civic explainer Ben Sheehan. He's the host of Civics Made Easy on PBS. Check it out. Ben was interviewing some very accomplished high schoolers on what kind of policies they cared about, what they're up to in their schools. So they got off the stage, and I was able to snag them for a few minutes [00:15:30] to hear what they are seeing in the classroom. I talked to Ava June Tackett.
Ava June Tackett: I'm Ava June Tackett, and I'm a sophomore at Johnson Central High School in Johnson County, Kentucky.
Nick Capodice: To Shreya Rahman.
Shreya Raman: Hi, my name is Soraya Rahman. I go to bases out of Turkey. I'm a junior in Phoenix, Arizona.
Nick Capodice: And to Ben Curran.
Ben Kurian: I'm Ben Curran, I'm a current sophomore from Olentangy Liberty High School. I'm in Powell, Ohio. That's a suburb of Columbus, Ohio.
Ava June Tackett: So I started my civics journey, I guess in the national civics be through the Chamber of Commerce [00:16:00] Foundation. And my speech and essay was over improving civics education in schools. And I got to create a community problem solving project called Young Government. I got to write a children's book called Honestly Abe.
Shreya Raman: I've advised for the Arizona Board of Education, the charter school Board, and the Governor's Commission. I've given a TEDx talk and I work in politics. So I managed, um, my first ever campaign at 14. We lost.
Ben Kurian: Um, I think really three formative experiences I've seen kind of through my civic identity, the first one [00:16:30] being filmmaking. So when I was in seventh grade, I kind of realized Ohio was a leader in national opioid deaths. So I created a documentary about that, trying to raise awareness, break the stigma. Um, I was fortunate to win first prize in a national competition hosted by the C-Span network. And ever since then, I've been creating a lot more documentaries on a variety of different civic issues.
Nick Capodice: So I asked them first, what's it like where you go to school? Like, what do you feel personally about how things are going in your civics [00:17:00] classroom?
Ava June Tackett: Teachers are terrified to teach civics because like I said, it's so polarized. And I'm from Kentucky, which and it's no secret that Kentucky is one of the most polarized states in the nation, but teachers are scared of the Facebook posts that follow. They're scared of the classroom switches that happen. And it leads to them not teaching civics. Um, because it's safer to not. But when you think about it, it's not safer because if you don't teach basic principles and how to be involved, [00:17:30] then you face a nation that is not educated and that that is the scariest thing, um, that our nation is facing is people that aren't. They don't know what they're talking about.
Shreya Raman: I'm a teacher's assistant, a TA for AP government. And so the class, the classes I teach in, they're they're such curious kids. They're all freshmen because my school makes all of us take AP government as freshmen. Um, and they're so curious about especially what's going on with current events and how that relates to the [00:18:00] curriculum. And I watch my government teacher, um, get all these questions. And there's always a sense of like, what will parents say? What will administrators say? If I, if I talk about this issue, especially when you're asking about something like current events, like, like what's going on internationally, what's going on domestically in America, um, and teachers are so scared to talk about it because even though it's such vital information, there's always going to be a parent out there or an administrator or a policymaker out there who is going to see it as a brainwashing children, which I don't think informing children [00:18:30] is, is brainwashing them. When when a student asks in class, what's happening with, with this legislation? What's happening with, with this country? Um, they're asking because they want to know. They're curious about the world around them. And it's so dangerous telling, telling teachers they have to squash that curiosity for the sake of not being controversial because controversy is not a bad thing. Everything is controversial.
Ben Kurian: We're seeing a lot of polarization. Like that is undeniable. Um, you know, party specific advocacy. Um, so what our students do, you know, our 32 [00:19:00] high school undergrad and med students, they come to us, they bring us like a specific bill that's being worked on or trying to be passed through the House or Senate. Um, and, and they tell us, hey, like I support this issue or like, I don't support this issue. And it's usually never, you know, party based, it's, it's more just based on the issue. Like, do I like the implementation of this bill or do I not? Um, maybe it's teaching kids more about, you know, specific issues, right. Or specific policies. Um, I think that specificity is the [00:19:30] way to, uh, to drive out polarization, uh, and to foster like a better civic education.
Nick Capodice: Then I said to them, look, you are three of the most civically engaged students in the nation. You've either written a book, you've made a documentary, you've run a political campaign. What advice would you give to a fellow student who feels that they don't have the opportunity? You've had [00:20:00] someone who maybe feels like, hey, great, when I'm 18, I can vote. But politicians don't seem to care that much about young voters, and young voters don't have a good turnout. Maybe this is someone who feels a little disenchanted by politics in general. What would you say to that student?
Shreya Raman: But when you talk about like the inherent pessimism surrounding people in terms of political efficacy, I really want to emphasize that pessimism does not breed inefficiency. One of the best things you can do as an informed citizen is being able [00:20:30] to critique the country you love. And so whether it's through basic civic actions like voting or, um, things like volunteering for a campaign, phone banking, going door to door for a cause that you really care about. Those are all things that's available to everyone. I cannot stress enough how every political candidate in your state is going to have and look for volunteers to to phone bank, to go door to door and talk about certain issues, right? Like I've done that so many different times. I help lead phone banking now. Um, there, there will always be an opportunity [00:21:00] to, to advocate for a cause that you really care about.
Ava June Tackett: So I really think it's important to emphasize that civics isn't always politics. Politics is turned into kind of a dirty word in America right now because we are so polarized more than ever before. And so civics is not. It can be politics, don't get me wrong. I mean, being involved in a campaign is great. And that's wonderful work that you're doing. But civics is on a more general scale. Anything to [00:21:30] impact your community. And that's what kids need to realize is when they talk to whenever they go play basketball with their friends from other school districts, that civics because you're making a connection. Civics is being involved, making the connections of people in your community and not letting the word community be limited to where you're at.
Ben Kurian: Children are inherently very innocent, right? We are super like enthusiastic, engaged. I have a family friend who's a three year old who will just go on [00:22:00] and on and on about a variety of topics. But I think it really means that just like we care, like we are like pretty much involved. Um, so that isn't really the problem. It's more just knowing how to get involved. Um, so I think the way to know how to get involved is to just like, see the impact that, you know, society has on you. It's not a problem of them being interested or like wanting to help out their community, because I'm sure they do. Um, it's more just like knowing that they can do that and how to do that. Um, so I think giving students the tools to, [00:22:30] you know, maybe how to reach out to a local policymaker or, giving them the tools to advocate maybe on social media. There's so many different avenues today, especially, you know, living in the 21st century to be civically engaged. And I think it's just teaching our children just how to use those tools.
Shreya Raman: I know a lot of people from less fortunate backgrounds who always talk about how they don't have time. Time for politics or time for civics because they're trying to put food on the table for their family. You fix that [00:23:00] issue by advocating politically, by having civic engagement. If you're struggling to put food on the table, if your parents if you're watching your parents struggle to make a living, the way you fix that systemically is by advocating for policies to raise the minimum wage or for more affordable health care. That's how you you make a difference. And no matter what issue you're struggling with, there will always be a political avenue for you to take to fix that issue.
Hannah McCarthy: Nick, you called this episode why kids are having [00:23:30] a tough time, but it feels like not only are the kids all right, maybe because of them, the rest of us are gonna be.
Nick Capodice: Do you think I could use, like, a who sample, or would I get into trouble for that? That's it for this who? This episode on how students feel they're doing in the civics classroom. This episode is made in collaboration with Icivics by me, Nick Capodice with You Hannah McCarthy. Thank you. Our staff [00:24:00] includes producer Marina Henke, producer Dana Cataldo, and executive producer Rebecca LaVoy. Music. In this episode from blue Dot sessions, Epidemic Sound and the wondrous Chris Zabriskie. Civics 101 is a production of NPR New Hampshire Public Radio. By the way, New Hampshire just signed a bill doing the Civic Seals. True story. Check it out, Sid. See you later.
